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 Hsing I and Bagau

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Jeff

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PostSubject: Hsing I and Bagau   Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:54 am

Why do so many practioners around the world who study Baguazhang dabble in Hsing I and vice-versa?

What are the differences?

What are the similarities?

-Jeff
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eric

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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:55 pm

First let me say that I am by NO means an expert on these. A lot better answer would come from others like Master Rick Sifu, even "Tony Jon". With that said I'll throw out my 2 cents worth, no make that a penny and a half.
From what I have seen, they are the same, like 2 sides of a coin, of course you have to throw Tai Chi in there too. When I say the same I don't mean carbon copy, but different ways of expressing the same techniques.
Why people train in one and dabble in another is a question that would require an answer from each person who does it. I can only answer for myself. It took Hsing I for me to truly understand Bagau, I know it sounds weird, but then again that's me.
I was not able to train Bagau, Mantis or anything else with my tore rotator cuff. It got to a point that all I could train was Hsing I. Now that the repair has been done, and my arm in an immoblilizer, I can see maybe Tai Chi in my near future for awhile. We'll see. For me it's not about dabbling, but training what I need at that time to keep me going.
Eric
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Jason_Gilbert

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PostSubject: my take on it   Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:17 pm

The first thing that comes to my mind that all internal arts have in common is chi kung.


From the research that i have done hsing I and learned the five element fists, but I know far more about baguazhang, but I am still at the very beginning of my baguazhang journey.

..but back to my statement, both baguazhang and hsing i have the concept and develop "whole body power." Hsing I sure seems easier to learn on the surface, but that is as far as I have scratched itI.


Hsing I uses penetrating energy, while bagua uses spiral energy with centrifugal and centripital forces. Hsing I five element linking form that I admittetly learned from a dvd was totally linear.

Baguazhang is strictly a palm art, while hsing I uses fists and palm. There is one fist in baguazhang that I am aware of, some one correct me if am wrong on the name, but I think it is called the tiger tooth. ...not sure.

Hsing I is certainly older, keep in mind that Dong Hai Chuan brought baguazhang to the light in the 1800s.

I would liken hsing i as the rottweiler of the internal arts. Straight to the point.

There is no way I could comment on which is superior, because I don't know enough about hsing I and am a beginner at the baguazhang.

I would say that the healing benefits of baguazhang (of which i have made mention of in this forum) are GREAT!

Hope my little knowledge helped some.



Good luck on your training, Eric!
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:35 am

Okay...

Here is my little tid bit.

Hsing I is based on the the five elements and uses linear center-line attacks and defense as a means of application. True it does have the Qi Gong training woven into it and it has it's own little footwork manuevers. Baguazhang has Qi Gong and footwork training yet is circular in pattern, yet some move with straight line type advancements or form pattern. Thus this is why sijo Ng has mentioned his form of Bagua as being "Straight Line Baguazhang"

Hsing I does use fist while Baguazhang uses mainly palms (minus 1 punch in our version of the form; I believe it's called either a Lion's Tooth or Dragon's Tooth - not exactly for sure)

I believe Jason is correct about the "whole body power" development, one develops in on a spiraling type note and another on a penetrating type note while the mental nature of each is slightly different. Hsing I is more aggressive and domination force while in my opinion Baguazhang is more passive and elusive. One are is more reactive than the other in my opinion.

I belive some practioners train and develop both is so that they have the best of both worlds. A defensive art and a offensive art. One that moves circular and one that moves directly linear. Remember, even the Chinese Army learned some Hsing I for its effectiveness way back in the day, so it definitely holds its own on the battle field.

Basically, I'm in agreement with you guys and that's my little tid bit. I've seen Dr. Ng's version of Hsing I and I have to say it is impressive, not a lot of flash and straight to the point (which I like). I train the vesion of Baguazhang that Master Pickens has graciously taught me and I love it, just don't have much time to train the Hsing I right now....but maybe someday. We'll see.

Take care,
-Jeff
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Shane Bryant



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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:23 pm

*SNIP*
"Baguazhang is strictly a palm art, while hsing I uses fists and palm. There is one fist in baguazhang that I am aware of, some one correct me if am wrong on the name, but I think it is called the tiger tooth. ...not sure."

*SNIP*
"Hsing I does use fist while Baguazhang uses mainly palms (minus 1 punch in our version of the form; I believe it's called either a Lion's Tooth or Dragon's Tooth - not exactly for sure)"

Combat is derived from the 8 palms. The form is an example of some ways that past masters have found to use those palms effectively. After the form you must go back to the palms and apply the understanding of the palms that you got from the form so that you can create your own spontaneous reactions.

With that said, the applications for use of the palms is limited only by your understanding of them and every palm can be used as a variety of different punches, finger strikes, chops, elbow strikes, forearm strikes, locks, breaks, throws, grabs, etc.

The examples of the palms' use that you see in the form is derived from the combat experience of past masters as well as the theory of some masters who did not engage in combat. It is important to remember that the forms were compiled over a period of time by different masters. Some of them had a different focus than others (exercise, aesthetics, training large numbers of non-disciple students at a large school, etc).

Although the form is full of practical defensive tactics, it also contains some techniques that are less useful than others. Also, just because a past master found a certain tactic useful does not mean that it will work for you. Your body type may be different, for instance. Also, modern fighting in America is different from old school fighting in China (consider the different types of fighters you will face today compared to what they faced in China in the 1800's and early 1900's. Also consider the cultural differences in how they would have approached combat. And the fact that many Baguazhang FIGHTERS were packing weapons and/or were working in bodyguard groups with other trained warriors who also had weapons).

That means that if you actually intend to engage in combat with your baguazhang, it is more important for you to take that final step and go back to the palms after you understand the form so that you can make your baguazhang YOUR baguazhang. Learn to apply the principles of the PALMS to modern fighting as opposed to locking yourself into the suggested applications you find in the form.

You can't imagine that a simple and high percentage technique such as a right cross is non-existent in our baguazhang.

Shane
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Shane Bryant



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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:25 pm

Also, I meant to point out that the Dragon's Tooth uppercut you find in our form is a Cloud Palm made into a fist shape.

Shane
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Shane Bryant



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PostSubject: Now Xingyiquan   Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:59 am

Xingyi has a rep for being linear, which it is at first glance. But remember so does our baguazhang and I would argue that the only thing linear about our bagua is the pattern that it makes on the ground. Every movement has a concavity element to it (on a tangent, you might be interested to know that MANY so-called circular style of bagua also practice exactly the same way that we do, in a straight line. Those systems consider it to be a supplementary training method called lianhuan-linking forms).

My point is that you should not be deceived by the initial linear appearance that you find in xingyi. Also, the way that xingyi extrapolates its combat tactics from the foundation of the five fists is similar to the creative interpretation a baguazhang player should use when studying the eight palms at an advanced level as I mentioned before.

I am no expert at Xingyiquan, but fortunately I know a few of them and they have been kind enough to share some of their methods with me over the years. I find a lot in common between the two systems. Really the primary difference that I have encountered has been the constant forward intention of Xingyiquan as opposed to baguazhang flanking strategy. However, both systems also contain each, but the focus is on their "speciality."

These are only physical observations for the most part. The subjects of yi, qi, and shen would also be relevant but I leave it to someone more qualified.

I will share a brief Dr. Ng story and then off to bed. When asked about the difference between baguazhang and Xingyiquan once, Dr. Ng simply performed five or six moves of baguazhang with a closed fist.
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:48 am

Brother,
I miss our conversations....lol

Well said man! Love your knowledge and approach to practicial combat concepts and theories.

Don't know what else to really say, lol....just miss our conversations.

Hope all is well with you and yours,
Talk to you soon.
-Jeff
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Eric Townsend

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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:43 pm

ahhh, my brother! I've missed hearing you unleash like that. Thanks for all you hard work and for spreading the wealth!
Miss you bro!
Eric Townsend

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Eric Townsend ***Elite Guard Division***

"...Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No I beat my body and make it my slave..."
1 Corinthians 9: 25-27
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Shane Bryant



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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:02 pm

I miss you guys too. I stay so busy I never get the chance to talk gongfu so I was happy to have a little time the other day to post some thoughts.

Hope you guys are doing good.

Shane
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Jay Gilbert



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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:37 am

Thanks for the story of Dr. Ng!

Really makes sense, huh? Someone said once, that you could do taiji, hsing I or baguazhang. ....or just do baguazhang.

Mr. Bryant, thanks so much for the insight.

I understand we dont' just use the palm, we use the whole hand. The fingers to poke, the edge to chop, the back of the hand (yin palm?). I must admit at the point I made my post, I was ignorant of many things.


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eric

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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:07 am

Very cool discussion! Since I've been training Ng Family Kung Fu for the last 8 years and a word that is always repeated is "intent". Correct me if I'm wrong but it's not so much about the style or system, Baguazhang, Hsing I, Taijiquan, etc., it's about the intent of the technique. Really what is more internal than imposing your will (intent) on someone else, be it a palm, fist, lock, throw, etc.
Eric
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Jay Gilbert



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PostSubject: Re: Hsing I and Bagau   Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:16 am

I agree Eric! Well said. Wisdom is always nice.
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