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DANNY



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PostSubject: BaguaZhang   Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:21 am

It is the best of all the styles that are based upon Daoist Circle walking techniques. Its even Better than BapanZhang.

Danny
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:59 am

Okay, I'll shoot. Why?

-Jeff
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DANNY



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:40 pm

Why?
Well, this is a post that could go on for ever but I will keep it short.

BGZ is in my opinon an excellent art for a number of reasons but the reason I chose to focus on is that it adapts so well to my habit of falling back on Tiger, Shuai Jiao & Iron Palm. All of which flow seamlessly into my BGZ in practice as well. Unlike most of my brothers I chose to follow the path of Iron Palm as opposed to the Vibration Palm. So my BGZ techniques my be a bit more forceful and a bit less subtle but no less effective. I tend to lead toward throwing in my applications as an ending movement which works well as Jiang Rong Qiao's BGZ carries his Shuai Jiao influance. I also have a tendency to use Tiger style entering methods and so It may look forceful in the begining but then it disapears. You get and IP slap and thrown on your head. Or at least thats the plan.

It has worked pretty well for me so far.

Danny
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ken



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:30 pm

Forgive me, but I have to ask what is BapanZhang? I didnt know there was another internal style beyond XY, Bagua, and Tai Chi. Does it have to deal with circle walking?

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kennon
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ken



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:31 pm

Also, there are more styles based on Daoist Circle walking? Really!?

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kennon
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:39 am

Danny,
Good reply. I like the concept of the Bagua system. How one can plug any style into it and create your own hybrid which flows well for the practioner...as long as essentials and the core of the systems are applied properly. Like we all understand, Bagua is ever changing and there are no two bagua styles that are exactly alike. The use of the Tiger style to enter is a new idea to me and quite interesting...maybe someday I can ask for you to elaborate on it. I tend to try and end a lot of the movements with throws also, after trying to annihalate my opponent to the best of my ability.

Iron Palm, Vibration palm, or whatever doesn't really matter, they both work when applied properly so with that being said...having your Iron skills mixed with the Bagua will surely produce devastating results.

Thanks.

Quote :
I didnt know there was another internal style beyond XY, Bagua, and Tai Chi.

Well, I sort of count the Lui He Quan as being an internal style. Even though it has a good mixture of external with it, there is still a whole lot going on within the system that (in my opinion) it ranks just as high as the other three main internal styles.

Take care,
-Jeff
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DANNY



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:05 am

There are in fact several "Internal" Styles Taji, Xingyi & Bagua are just the big three kinda like Chystler , ford and chvy in the sixties they overshadowed everything else.

But yes Liu He Ba Fa, Liu He, I chuan, etc are labeled as internal styles as well. I say "labeled" because regardless of the style if it is a Chinese art it has and internal & external side. Even Tiger has its internal side.

While it is not necessary once the concept is understood, labaling an art as internal or external is a fantastic idea to give new students and Idea of what they are going to be reciving as well as what is expected of them.

As for Ba Pan Zhang I will take a page from Joseph Crandall on this one

"The origins of Pa Kua Chang are debated: either founder Dong Hai-Chuan created the art or he simply renamed and modified the art he learned from Dong Linmeng, the founder of Ba Pan Zhang. There are similarites and differences between the arts. Ba Pan Zhang uses the palm to strike, like Pa Kua Chang, but has different walking and standing posture techniques.

Ba Pan Zhang expert Ren Zhicheng (1878 to 1967) learned Ba Pan Zhang from Li Zhenqing, who learned from Ba Pan Zhang founder Dong Linmeng. Learning the art took seven years. Includes The Eight Big Forms: Strong Horse, Eagle Overturns, Piercing Palms, Natural Moving, Earth Basin, Dragon Moving, Monkey Jumping, Pierce the Forest. Also includes The Twenty-four Ba Pan Zhang attack/defense techniques (a two man form), Eight Basins Saber and Spear, and Training Methods."

Thanks for the comment of my Iron Skills Jeff, I am humbled by your generosity.
Danny
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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:38 pm

and there I thought the known/agreed upon internal styles were stated already in bagua, hsing i and taiji.. boy was i wrong.. though I think of very little as being external, especially in our family, because you can add the internal side to anything you're doing..

couldn't something be thought of as internal as long as the practitioner is doing so? What I mean is if I'm using 18 lohans as a base of my own fighting style, but combining it with fa jing, and iron palm skills, wouldn't I be internalizing an external style? My intent with fighting wouldn't merely be smack someone as hard as I can until the fight ends, my intent would be to use the internal training, chi gung, and whatever else to give a great boost to my external hard style.

all BS aside, bagua is great stuff.. I love the way it makes me feel when I do it, and push-hands is a lot of fun to do with everyone.. It's one of the few things that I enjoy doing with everyone because it creates such a great challenge.. am I sounding selfish when I say I love being pushed by Sifu and Camellia? lol
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:53 am

I try not to label everything too distinctly. I have external and internal elements mixed in everything I do but as a way of basing something into a catagory, I tend to train in order to move upwards within internal practices. I think one can only go so far doing things completely (again...using a catagorizing term) - externally.

-Jeff
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DANNY



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:15 pm

My point of view is this.

We ,meaning the general human population, have gone so far from our roots we no longer have any clue what the human mind/body/spirit is truely capable of. We find every year as athletes break record after record that what we thought was the ultimate of human physical acomplishment 20 years ago is standard today. The menatl abilities of many of the top thinkers from 50 years ago has led to theories and ideas that would have been unimaginable even ten years ago.
We find every day that scientific fact is disolving and the truth of human ability is still a mystery.

If we dwell too much in the External we loose sight of our potential in this way, but if we dwell too much in the Internal we lose the ability to be physical. In truth Internal training combined with visualization and a healthy amount of external conditioning is most likely the best and most efficient method of pefercting the self. regardless of wether you are a martial artist or not.

For instance someone who mixes, Spirituality with positive thinking and exercise is likely to achive a great deal more than someone who simply prays a bunch. or simply does a bunch of push ups.

I like Tiger due to its intensity and focus, Bagua due to its internal development and I tend to overlap other ideas that make me happy.

Iron Skills is to me kind of the ultimate because it is a balanced hybrid of, Internal development, Extrnal conditioning and visualization.

Again this is just my viewpoint on things.

Danny
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:29 pm

Nice!

Especially...
Quote :
In truth Internal training combined with visualization and a healthy amount of external conditioning is most likely the best and most efficient method of pefercting the self. regardless of wether you are a martial artist or not.

-Jeff
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ngstyleshane



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:13 pm

Here's an interesting tidbit.

There's always people that argue about the difference between internal and external. There's been a lot of older masters who have claimed that the terms didn't even appear until the last couple of hundred years.

Professor Kang Ge Wu, a noted martial arts historian, claims that the historical documentation indicates that this is the case. According to him, there was one boxing system that was called Nei Jia Quan and existed during some time period or other (I don't have his articles in front of me, I'm just shooting of the head and I don't remember what time period.)

So this style of Nei Jia Quan, or internal school boxing or inner family boxing, claimed that their founder was the legendary Taoist Zhang San Feng.

Cheng, Ting-hua, Dong, Hai-quan's most famous Baguazhang student, started, for lack of a better term, a study group with a couple of Xingyiquan and Taijiquan practitioners in Beijing in the 1800's or somewhere around there (again, my dates may be bad since I'm doing this from memory).

So this little study group decided to call themselves Nei Jia Quan. HOWEVER, this was just the name of their group and did not reflect on the quality of their martial arts. Also, they had no idea that a martial art called Nei Jia Quan had ever existed. Apparently someone told them about it and they changed the name of their group, but not before some folks got all confused and assumed that their martial arts were ancient Daoist arts that traced back to Zhang San Feng and that they all fell under the label of "Internal."

Shane
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DANNY



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:39 pm

Good stuff.
Also note that Jiang Rong Chiao called everything that he did Nei Jia Quan (internal boxing) This included but was not limited to his BaguaZhang, XingyiQuan, his own version of TaijiQuan that he called Taiji Nei Jia Zhang Quan, or Supreme Ultimate Internal Palm and Fist.
He also regarded the Cha Chuan, Tam Tui and Shuai Jiao that that he studied as internal boxing.

We can only guess at what the old masters ment when they regarded somthing as Nei Jia Quan. I do not recall the book but Deng Meng Dao in one of his books refers to Nei Jia as kung fu that has reached a highly refined level of acomplishment. Joseph Crandal and most others refer to it as internal kung fu styles while still others refer to Nei jia as Kung Fu as was practiced by the inner door students of a style.

What a mess.
Danny
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:35 am

Quote :
What a mess.

Yep but isn't just about everything considered this way... at least now-a-days!?
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Brian H



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:50 pm

Howdy I jumped onboard really late. But i really enjoyed the Bagua converstion here and thought I might add my 2 cents. I think the problem is labeling something completely internal or external is causes confusion. In my limited opinion I see all authentic chinese arts and and western sport atheletics as being both at the same time. You cant have motion without intent, you cant have power without motion. All these must be done with the duality of internal and external being one in the same. Tiger,leopard crane and snake all have internal and external qualities just as bagua and tai chi and so forth. Some emphesize breathe and chi and soft redirective techniques while others emphasize muscle strength and plyometeric power. To me its one in the same. I think we as humans need to label everything and seperate things when in this case its just all different aspects of the whole entity. I think to be effect at any martial art you must be able to be hard and soft at once , good relaxed insides are only good when matched with proper frames and structure alignments.
Again i think hard and soft are just labels describing different aspects of the same whole. Like playing guitar you need good timing,melodic rythem, and proper tonation but these are useless if you dont know scales-chord structure and finger conditioning. Put both together and you have some great guitar skills. Same as Kung fu.
And yes bagua is very adaptive it can be used by itslef or easily integrated into other fighting styles. I find that i use Bagua when doing Ju titsu(standing or on the ground), when Im doing shuai jiao or chin na. Bagua seems to compliment most everything I do. All of our Bagua is directly tied to specific animals. So I can ealisy see how It can be utilized into most styles. Bagua has great fundamental basics that are a great foundation and vehicle to work frm
peace and blessings
Brian
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:18 pm

Welcome aboard Brian. Glad to have you here.

You made some interesting points. Only recently have I tried to not categorize styles either "external" or "internal". It is really hard, once you start understanding a style, which catagory it would fall into. Some styles are labeled "external" but clearly have the "internal" aspects...so which does it fall into??? The points you eleborate on answers that question. People have so many different beliefs on what makes a style what and that I believe confuses practioners.

In my opinion I have found that the best times to say a style is one or the other is when talking amongst other martial artist to help express the principle of the said style. I'd say..."Well you could label it more external than internal but it has the properties of both...just more physical/hard techniques are seen."...something like that to help get my point across. Hopefully I'll get better with words and won't have speak about styles in this manner though...lol Very Happy

Thanks again Brian.
-Jeff
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Brian H



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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:13 am

thanks Jeff good point. Your right, when we have to talk to other martial artists and try and explain what we do its hard not to label what we do that doesnt put it in a categorized box. I have this problem time and time again. I feel I need to write a book to someone just to tell them what style I do (lol). If anyone can come up with a short answer please enlighten me! (laughs). I think Danny had it right he mixes what seems to be two internal and external extremes (bagua-tiger) but really they are based from the same principles and work well together. When you learn to inovate like that your development in the arts become unlimited. Its when we put things up in nice little boxes we close them up from growing.
Brian
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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:16 pm

You're exactly correct. We must all strive to think outside the box in order to grow. I've heard it time and time again from my teachers. It's like playing music.

The first step you learn to read the notes.

Second step you learn to play consistantly along with the notes.

3rd you learn to play by ear.

and Finally, you take all the notes, throw them up in the air and play from the heart. Creating your own music. Thus, becoming unlimited in your achievements/skills.

Take care,
-Jeff
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PostSubject: RE:bagua   Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:43 pm

Sifu Scott Harris has began my journey into the bagua and I find it highly fascinating, along with FEELING the results from only proper circle walking!

I was supposed to have my arthritic hips replaced as a child, that is what led me to the Twin Dragons as a child. Sifu's Mark Speck and Scott Harris were my teachers. I was lucky enough to meet Grand Master Ng. Enough about that, it's off topic.

...but the bagua is going to take alot of time with me, so far. It doesn't come overnight, not for me anyway.


Also, the bagua has led me into Qigong and that is what I am SO excited about.

Thru Qigong exercises that Teacher showed me, I have been able to keep an ailing liver and my arthritis in check! These are tangible, lab tests that I have been keeping record of!

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I am just so excited to be a member of this forum.


Honored.



love to all
Jason
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Jeff

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:50 am

Jason,

Awesome to have you on board. You are correct about the Baguazhang. The art is truly a great art for health as well as combat. It is duel natured and I'm like you, I'm blessed that my teacher has taught it to me in the fashion that he has.

I'm happy that the benefits of the bagua have helped you in your health related issues. You are among many that I have personally heard of or met that have stated simular things. I have seen witness to it's abilities to help restore the body in others and well as for myself, I feel the energetic and "meshing" within my own self while practicing the system...so, I know it works too.

Glad things are on the up and up for you and I hope they continue to keep going that way.

-Train Hard,
-Jeff
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PostSubject: re:Baguazhang   Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:23 am

Thanks for the positive words, Jeff!

My arthritis pain is GONE! The only time I even get any aches is when I sleep weird on my mattress which is too soft.

The walking chi kungs are a god send!

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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Sun Nov 28, 2010 12:39 am

Very cool Jason! Thank you for sharing.
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PostSubject: Re: BaguaZhang   Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:25 pm

I thought I would say thanks to you all and offer an update.

After many hours of circle walking with the mother palms and practiciing my inside and outside turns along with the single and double palm change, I have for the first time in a few years really starting to develop a tight mid section!

My body fat percentage must have went down quite a bit because my veins sure stick out more now, they appear to be larger, but like I said, i think it is due to losing a bit of body fat.


I am a firm believer that the circular training develops the muscles needed for FIGHTING! and I just can't say enough about the healing benefits! Both mental and physical.

Very Happy
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